byu accounting phd prep

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BYU MAcc vs Tilburg Research Master's in Accounting for PhD prep

By MountainKing October 16, 2012 in PhD in Business

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Mountainking.

BYU MAcc seems to be quite popular on this forum. However, Tilburg produces more research. BYU has a great track record of placing into the top PhD programs, though. Any record of Tilburg Accounting placements? I'm interested in Empirical Finance, Valuation, Capital Markets, Investment, perhaps Earnings management too.

I realized that research is truly entrepreneurial. I don't have a particular affinity for finance theory. Accounting admissions are easier compared to Finance, salaries are as high, and with the right direction in research, I could just as easily work on topics of my interest. Maybe not asset pricing, but that's alright.

JoF, JFE, RFS, JFQA count towards accounting tenure, in addition to the accounting journals, and I am assuming it is easier to publish in accounting journals as there are more number of journals to aim for. Also, I won't have to lock horns with people who already have PhDs in theoretical physics.

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fyi, BYU is a private university funded by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (the LDS Church, or Mormons, colloquially). Admissions involves a required ecclesistical endorsement (an endorsement which must be written, I believe, by an ecclesiastical leader from the LDS church). It is more the exception than the rule that a nonmember of the LDS Church is admitted, as far as I understand it. If you are not a member of the church, this may dramatically reduce your chances of being admitted to the MAcc program.

Your larger point about research interests matching closely with your MAcc program (at least, I think that's what you're getting at) is not a high priority for most PhD admissions committees. That's my impression -- that a MAcc is more a box to be checked and not much scrutiny is placed into what research-oriented things might have rubbed off from the university you got it from. The university's "ranking" might matter, but I'm not sure fit between MAcc school and applicant research interest is closely watched. I also get the feeling that publication prior to admission is not a requirement for Accounting PhD's. I don't know if I can go so far as to say that "it doesn't matter" (I would be very surprised if it didn't matter at all that an applicant is published), but I think the vast majority of applicants are unpublished, and/or without RA experience, so not having either of these experiences is not a profile-maker or breaker, in most cases. A greater bang for your buck, as far as improving/solidifying your profile, may be GMAT study, focusing on a good graduate GPA, acquiring meaningful work experience, and taking math courses. I say that based on my reading of this forum and of various schools' admissions guidelines. Accounting PhD admissions committees seem to view applicants very similarly to how public accounting firms view recently graduated applicants: the public accounting firms do not care so much about whether you have performed an audit before, but they care about whether you have good grades and overall intelligence -- the building blocks that allow them to know they can teach you to perform an audit. PhD adcoms seem to merely want you to bring the raw ingredients to the table; they take it upon themselves to cook you up into an professorial pie.

BYU's MAcc has a great record and prepares people very well. However, you have to recognize that there may be an extreme culture shock if you go there. I am a Mormon myself and I have some cultural problems with BYU. Also, it sounds like you may not already have an accounting background. There are certain prereq's for their master's program; essentially, you need an accounting undergrad degree. On top of that, their master's program is almost exclusively made up of their own undergrads and doesn't very readily admit other students.

If you don't already have an accounting background It would probably take you 3 years to do that BYU masters, if everything went well. I imagine you would be better off with Tilburg (I know nothing about them) or just doing a master's in Econ, if that's an option for you, and connecting with accounting faculty wherever you do the masters.

Also, there are generally 3 A accounting journals; JAR, JAE and TAR, many schools also count CAR and RAST. There are other journals beyond that, I assume finance has lower ranked journals as well, but I'm not sure the logic that it is easier to publish in accounting is really sound.

Thanks for the responses.

Any inputs on Queen's School of Business' PhD Prep Accounting Masters? Queen's School of Business - Areas of Specialization - Accounting If nothing works out, I'll just go in for a Master's in Statistics, I guess. What do you think of that idea? Stats should cover all my bases (Finance and Accounting), right?

Some great info in there. I'm a brown Hindu (east) Indian, so I doubt I'll be even considered for admissions at BYU, leave alone the MAcc program. Plus I did hear a bit about the culture there. It is unsettling to say the least. Is it like a Watered down version of the Westboro Baptist Church? (that's about as much as I know about Fundamentalist right wing Christian groups, apart from the KKK)

I don't mean to say that publishing in Accounting Journals is easy. Compared to Finance, there's just a larger playground. The difference might be marginal. Only time will tell.

Any inputs on Queen's School of Business' PhD Prep Accounting Masters? If nothing works out, I'll just go in for a Master's in Statistics, I guess. What do you think of that idea? Stats should cover all my bases, right?

Thanks for the responses.   Any inputs on Queen's School of Business' PhD Prep Accounting Masters? Queen's School of Business - Areas of Specialization - Accounting If nothing works out, I'll just go in for a Master's in Statistics, I guess. What do you think of that idea? Stats should cover all my bases (Finance and Accounting), right?

Overall, I'm not clear on your logic. After considering two or three MAcc programs are you giving up on the whole idea of a MAcc? There is an overabundance of respectable MAcc programs out there. If a MAcc is the right path, you need to be willing to widen your search beyond two or three universities. I would argue that for a PhD in Accounting, especially without a Bechlor's in Accounting, it is hard to see the MAcc as anything but the right path (or at least most straightforward one). Statistical know-how is important, but it will only be a tool for your research into accounting phenomena. If you don't understand accounting you will be significantly less effective in using your statistical tools. At some point (undergrad or grad) you probably need to have a straight up accounting degree -- or maybe significant accounting experience -- to get into a PhD in Accounting program. The core question I think you need to answer first is whether a PhD in Accounting is the right thing, and if it is, I think you need to broaden you search for MAcc programs (and it doesn't have to be a MAcc program that is specifically PhD-prep, in my opinion).

I can't speak to Finance and the acceptability of a Master's in Statistics in that field.

The Queen's link you gave seems to show a good MAcc program. Better still it is designed to be PhD-track. I think that can only be a positive (although, again, not required ). I generally have heard good things about Queen's University, although I have not specifically heard anything about their MAcc program. That's about the best I can do to help you in that regard. Someone else on the forum might be able to speak more to the pros and cons of this program. Have you considered seeking out a MAcc from a university you are interested in getting your PhD from? If you take that approach it could offer some guidance to your MAcc search, and could give you an inside track on admissions (a letter of recommendation from a faculty would presumably be considered highly).

As for my comments, I was merely stating that admissions requires ecclesiastical endorsement, so you must know an LDS ecclesiastical leader well enough for him to sign his name to a statement which vouches for your commitment to live in accordance to the standards upheld by the university (including those related to the honor code, which I believe you have been referred to in the past). It is religious-adherence-based, not race-based (which you implied with your comparison to the KKK and your mention of your own ethnic background). In response to the criticism that has from time to time been laid against the university's honor code, I'd say it is difficult to entirely disentangle the admittedly exacting honor code from the success of BYU's MAcc program. The honor code isn't just about religious issues, but it also includes the requirement to possess "Honesty", and to exercise "Obedience to the Law", building blocks for the sort of ethical standards an accountant needs to cultivate (see wikipedia page on the honor code ). Furthermore, what exactly is unsettling about people voluntarily agreeing to hold themselves to a more stringent standard of living and agreeing to live what they believe is right? From what I know of other religions, much of the honor code would be in line with the lifestyle of a devout adherent of many faiths, with perhaps a few notable differences. If the lifestyle is so different from your own, no one is putting a gun to your head and telling you you have to attend. Just go somewhere else.

I like Mormons.. but the bigotry of their school is something I don't like (same as bob-jones in my eyes)

I wouldn't want to deny them the right to do what they think is right; but I would warn people about the kind of institution they are supporting by becoming alumni there.

Queen's MSc is a great program. Lots of graduates get into good universities -- see their PhD placement page.

The trouble for you will be gaining admission to that program. They tend to prefer Canadians unless the international student applying is exceptional.

If you don't have an accounting background and are applying to Queen's Accounting MSc, it might be difficult to convince the adcoms there that you will be able to handle the coursework.

Egads! This thread has a lot of wrong statements. Tillburg does not produce more accounting research than BYU. That should've been very obvious by the fact they have significantly fewer research faculty. This isn't to say that Tillburg is a bad school. I would also point out that Tillburg does produce more of certain types of research than BYU. But it does not produce more in general, nor does it produce more in your research interests. And its placement record is easily found on its website Career Perspectives - Tilburg University . As you will note, there has not been a significant placement in accounting at Tillburg yet.

I have almost given up trying to make people understand on this forum that an accounting PhD and finance PhD aren't so similar that you should decide to do an accounting PhD because of some perception that it will be easier to get into a PhD program. It is not easier to publish in accounting journals, in fact, there is a good bit of evidence it is harder. And you can't just expect to publish in finance journals as an accounting professor and expect tenure from your accounting department.

I also would argue that doing a masters to prepare for a phd would be beneficial if you want to go to a top school and that doing research would definitely help your profile. It is true it isn't required but you always want to look at ways to distinguish yourself. He is right you want an all-around profile, but I don't think you should take his advice as meaning you don't want to do a masters. For top programs, it is very rare not to have a masters.

YaSvo is correct that there could be a culture shock to BYU. I would also argue that unless you are from the Netherlands, there will also be quite a bit of culture shock at Tillburg. And unless you are staying limiting yourself geographically, you might be in for some cultural shock in your PhD program. I would also note that most schools include Accounting, Organizations, and Society before they include CAR or RAST. There is quite a few articles that state this.

Queen's program is in Canada. There track record Queen's School of Business - Master of Science in Management - Careers doesn't allow for you to see how their accounting students place, but I do note the program has only been around for 5 years and has likely placed fewer than 40 students in all 8 disciplines. So it does provide preparation but it doesn't really have a track record. With only 9 professors and a PhD program with students wanting to work with those professors, their research resources might also be constricted. A stats masters might be good if you are deficient on math but if you are already high on that maybe your deficiency is business. Applied econometrics also might be a better focus. And stop talking about having a bigger playground to publish in accounting. You are wrong.

And phdinaccy is right. Comparing Westboro Baptists, the KKK, right wing christian fundamentalists, and BYU as the same shows an incredible lack of knowledge on all 4 groups.

All in all, I think everyone should do a bit more research before posting.

much agreed. i have had personal interaction with a few byu macc phd prep track graduates, and they all have a strong research background and a very robust thought process with regards to research. in terms of output, i would not know that well since i am not in finance, but it is pretty clear that the byu macc has had significant success in placement. not just like a handful, but significant. their alumni page/wiki is filled with current students at the many of the best accounting phd programs. on the other hand, the tilburg program and some european programs have a generous scholarship / tuition waiver that you can aim for, depending on whether you are a top student or not (so they say). that's just for masters. as for phd, they are making inroads in my experience - in that you do see more of their phd students giving job seminars at top 40 stateside schools.

second these. i do not think it is easier, especially for an international student applying for an accounting phd program in the united states. the accounting program is not necessarily easier - it might seem that way because you might not have to do the asset pricing stuff, but otherwise? the workload is just as heavy if not more. heck, more journals? more journals does not equal easier - fallacy. as for the publication in finance journals and getting tenure - that depends from school to school. heck, for finance, some schools don't even count jfqa as a top tier, some count ms as a top tier, some say jfqa doesn't count unless you have a jfe/jf/rfs, some schools don't count accounting journals, some do. so who is to say that accounting departments will definitely count finance journals towards tenure? heck, some finance departments don't count a top tier-ish finance journal (jfqa) towards tenure themselves! don't just bet on it without knowing for sure, and don't over-assume... seriously. don't make over-generalisations if you do not know for certain! it may seem that way simply based on the top people in accounting - but what applies for the stars doesn't necessarily apply to you. you can't just think i get into a phd program, i get out, i get to play by the same rules as the top people i admired. no. you play by the rules of your dean and your department or by the rules of some other department that wants to hire you, even if those rules can be seriously silly at times. not some rules that you extrapolated and got based on someone else's cv.

the one big positive for the queen's program? it is in canada, so there is some what more recognition of the university and the program stateside. could be good, could be bad. i have been surprised by how ... north america-centric some faculty are. as for the larger playground statement - as i have responded to a similar post claiming the same argument for applying to real insurance or risk phd programs instead of finance, more journals doesn't mean bigger playground in all senses of the term, because what you don't care about is the size of the playground, it's the size of the area you can carve for yourself in that playground. seriously. there are so many other factors to consider before you can claim that. you might think that accounting people might be able to publish in finance, but heck, do not forget that you can get risk, real instate, insurance, economics, law, and even psychology people might be doing the same. it goes both ways. sure - bigger playground in terms of potential size, but size doesn't equate to quality or yield. don't take it that things are all equal across departments. besides, you could make the same argument for finance. you could publish in the top econ journals, and most departments i know will definitely count a aer/qje/econometrica towards tenure. the problem is that it's not easy to get a paper up there. so if you want to say playground size, isn't finance big enough? the thing is, size isn't everything! (cue old joke)

i was not aware that admissions to the byu masters program required the additional statement. you might have seen me extolling the virtues of the program on other threads, so mea culpa. if so, this would certainly make it more difficult but not impossible to get in. however, i cannot say anything bad about the people the program produces. heck, there are/were at least three byu macc graduates in the phd program at my current school. these people are all extremely hardworking and just well prepared - one of them states that the phd is nothing compared to the 3 years on mission. if the statement is truly required, considering that there is no shortage of qualified, hardworking mormons, then i suppose that's too bad.

And phdinaccy is right. Comparing Westboro Baptists, the KKK, right wing christian fundamentalists, and BYU as the same shows an incredible lack of knowledge on all 4 groups. All in all, I think everyone should do a bit more research before posting.

hear, hear. do some research, and then, if there is something you don't get, ask. but don't ask without doing the research first... and don't, for goodness sake, make statements about things you don't know for sure or that you simply extrapolated in your mind.

I guess my mind needs to reduce the amount of extrapolation it is doing :P

Apologies for my ignorance about BYU, and confusing them with KKK & WBC. I didn't mean to offend anybody, and I realize the comparison was definitely not warranted.

My knowledge about research & academia is amateurish, at best, so please forgive me :)

I was under the impression that Tilburg produced more research than BYU since it was higher on the UTD ranking list (I realize how flawed that might be in hindsight).

I'm not giving up on the MAcc. I know of several alums from my Engineering UG who've gone onto top Accounting PhD programs after their MBAs in India (Harvard, USC, Iowa). I don't plan on getting an MBA, but I am getting a CFA, which does provide a rigorous background in accounting/financial reporting (probably not from an academic standpoint). Perhaps not as strong as the CPA or Chartered Accountants.

Could you suggest some programs like BYU's MAcc or Queen's MSc Accounting?

"you play by the rules of your dean and your department or by the rules of some other department that wants to hire you, even if those rules can be seriously silly at times" Good advice.

The BYU thing was definitely hashed out enough, so I will ignore that.

PhDhope makes a good point about AOS, that is a journal that many schools count.

I don't specifically know any other programs designed to prepare for a PhD in business as a master's degree, but I am at a MAcc where there is also a PhD program. Academics are pretty happy about helping people prepare for academia. I have gotten a fair amount of wiggle room here and am taking PhD accounting courses, along with grad level econ and econometrics. If you are serious about a MAcc, try something like that.

BYU had ice-cream at the academy of management.

I like them.

Based on the anecdotal evidence that I've seen, I think the BYU program and Tilburg program take in different types of candidates and prepare them for different kinds of PhD programs. As previously mentioned, the BYU program is a not-so-good fit for someone without undergrad and/or professional exposure to accounting. I would have doubts about how far the Queens program will get you outside Canada.

A Masters in Statistics would not come close to "covering all your bases". At least consider something like a Masters in Econ, which would be much more desirable to admission committees. I could recommend a couple of Econ programs that appear to be well liked by accounting PhD admissions committees.

I would have doubts about how far the Queens program will get you outside Canada. .

I don't mean to contradict you, I just have a few doubts considering some opinions on this thread & rankings.

Evergreen mentioned that the Queen's MSc is a great program. It is one of the few PhD prep accounting programs I came across (others being BYU, Tilburg).

http://www.byuaccounting.net/rankings/phdrank/rank_phd.php?sortorder=ranking66&qurank=Financial

According to BYU Acc's PhD rankings for research in Financial Accounting produced by PhD students in a 3 year window over the past 9 years, Queen's ranks 37th. However, in terms of overall faculty productivity, it ranks 90th. They have faculty who got their PhDs from Iowa & USC. Is the reason for you doubting Queen's PhD placement their research 'brand'?

I'm guessing exposure to accounting research is possibly the best way of distinguishing my profile. Your thoughts?

I could recommend a couple of Econ programs that appear to be well liked by accounting PhD admissions committees.

I would really appreciate that. Again, just curious, what's your source of the information ;) ?

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Victor M. Mukhin was born in 1946 in the town of Orsk, Russia. In 1970 he graduated the Technological Institute in Leningrad. Victor M. Mukhin was directed to work to the scientific-industrial organization "Neorganika" (Elektrostal, Moscow region) where he is working during 47 years, at present as the head of the laboratory of carbon sorbents.     Victor M. Mukhin defended a Ph. D. thesis and a doctoral thesis at the Mendeleev University of Chemical Technology of Russia (in 1979 and 1997 accordingly). Professor of Mendeleev University of Chemical Technology of Russia. Scientific interests: production, investigation and application of active carbons, technological and ecological carbon-adsorptive processes, environmental protection, production of ecologically clean food.   

Title : Active carbons as nanoporous materials for solving of environmental problems

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